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Secrets cover-ups and strange phenomena

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UFOs and ideas that challenge reality

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itself all these Mysteries all this time

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are we ever going to get to the bottom

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of these my name is George Knapp I dig

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into news stories that others can't or

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won't I'm Jeremy Corbell and for some

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reason people tell me things they

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probably shouldn't

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some viewers may find this episode of

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hey this is weaponized we have a special

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guest a long time friend of ours Dr

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column Kelleher an eminent scientist and

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investigator and we got a lot of ground

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to cover I thought we would start with

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maybe a a general term that gets way

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overused it's become sort of a buzzword

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in scientific circles you see physicists

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using it you see UFO researchers using

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it all kinds of people who don't

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seemingly know what it means don't know

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what the source of Consciousness is but

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column you've worked on Consciousness

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related issues for decades give us a

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sense of

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um does the public understand what it is

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does science understand what it is and

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how it relates in general terms to the

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topics that we all discuss privately and

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and publicly

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well obviously you know Consciousness

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means uh different things to different

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people as you've just said but

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um from the the perspective of what's

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becoming more and more mainstream I

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think we've got a new sort of format for

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discussing Consciousness in even in

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academic circles and people like Jeffrey

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kreypal people like Professor Donald

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Hoffman from UC Irvine Edward Kelly

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there's quite a few people who are now

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coming forward and they're discussing

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Consciousness in a completely different

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way the Paradigm like for 100 years has

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been that Consciousness arises from the

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brain and what they're saying is we're

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turning that completely on its head and

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we're saying that Consciousness is

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actually a lot bigger than what's being

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allegedly made in the brain so the whole

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format of Consciousness is changing and

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as this brings more and more into

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mainstream as a as a person who's looked

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at UFOs for many many years I see an

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awful lot of relevance for Consciousness

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and the overlap with UFOs in fact I see

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human consciousness as being a sort of a

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link a linchpin for this the future

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study of UFOs I think it's all well and

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good to you know do a lot of uh research

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on sensor-driven technology with UFOs

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but the the real effects of of UFOs on

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humans have to do with effects on

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Consciousness as well as effects on on

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other aspects physiological effects

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psychological effects so the idea that

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Consciousness might be prime quote

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unquote is a pretty New Concept that has

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been sort of out on the margins of

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Neuroscience but it's getting more

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mainstream now and I believe that the

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study of UFO will benefit from this new

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infusion of you know creativity from

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Academia I love how you just went for

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the jugular and we are deep in it I just

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want to before we go anywhere I want to

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say I am so excited to have you on this

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show because you guys have been friends

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for so long and over those years you

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know for the decade we've been working

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together

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um I've gotten to know you and we become

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friends but this is a rare opportunity

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where we can just talk from a very

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um from a disposition of knowledge of

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each other for a long time I'm excited

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that you're here because you have been

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Central to a lot of what's been going on

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a lot of times the public could never

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know about it but now they can and

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that's why you talking with your buddy

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column just talking to him so people can

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hear to see kind of what brought you

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here how you got to the point of being I

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don't know what a good reference would

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be but it's like you've studied things

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that most of the world has never even

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considered but but you didn't start that

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way I'm curious what column Dr column

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Keller's origin story is like where does

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that yeah how does this happen so let's

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let's set the stage he's in Ireland he's

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in Dublin he's taking classes drinking

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pints and chasing girls what what was

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your degree in column and what was your

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long-term plan how did you end up here

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so you're making it sound like I had a

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Damascus experience in Dublin which

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probably arose through a couple of pints

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of Guinness but yeah uh I was studying

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biochemistry in University College

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Dublin and then I went on and I studied

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biochemistry in Trinity College Dublin

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and part of that was part of that latter

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study was a sojourn in France down in uh

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in south of France where I spent eight

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months at a laboratory in France and met

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a Canadian guy and we collaborated on

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some experiments and they worked really

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well so we invited me over to Canada so

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I I left Ireland in 1980 Something uh

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just for a couple of years and I was

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intending to go back to Ireland but you

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know I never left I never left North

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America I mean here I am almost 35 to 40

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years later and I'm still here and I I

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think I've been sort of very very

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fortunate in the way things have sort of

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unfolded

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over the years I moved from Ottawa in

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Canada to Toronto spent a few years in

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Toronto spent a few years in Vancouver

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came down to Denver Colorado all you

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know following work and following

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different aspects of research and then I

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moved to Las Vegas Nevada to join

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National Institute for Discovery Science

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in 1996 spent eight years in Las Vegas

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and then I moved to a biotechnology

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company in San Francisco and then I got

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a very mysterious call Through the

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Grapevine that there was a a new

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government-sponsored program in 2008

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starting up so I moved back to Las Vegas

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and I've been here ever since so it's

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kind of like this long shaggy dog story

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so yeah we're going to back you up

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though so you are you study you are a

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scientist in what realm were you doing

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besides like who are some of your

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mentors at the time time before you

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answer this strange ad in a newspaper I

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want to get to which changes your life

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forever from how I understand it yeah

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what kind of science were you doing who

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are your mentors and what inspired you

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by your Mentor you were a mainstream guy

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doing mainstream science for a while and

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then you went off the rails right that's

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right yeah I fell fell off the cliff

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what kind of science

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I guess

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um the main Mentor me as you speak of

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mentors uh was a guy in the Ontario

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Cancer Institute in Toronto I was

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studying the molecular biology of acute

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myeloblastic leukemia in other words how

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how leukemic cells grow and they grow

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out of control and they kill people so

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part of my my study was working with

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this guy

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Ernest McCullough who was actually

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credited with discovering stem cells and

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mice back in the 60s so the Ontario

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Cancer Institute was sort of of the

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place in Canada it was kind of the

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flagship place for research in Canada so

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I had I had this guy as a mentor and one

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of the things that he always drummed

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into me was look son if you really want

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to catch a big fish

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Go Fish in places where there's nobody

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else fishing and you know I that whole

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sort of advice stuck with me because I

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could see you know

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um the difference between you know

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Sciences business as usual versus

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science in in a sort of a much more

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um I guess Paradigm creating way so

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um I I took his advice to heart and um

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you know I was I was working down in

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Denver Colorado in an Immunology

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Research Institute when I saw this I

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opened Science magazine which is kind of

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the the sort of uh Bible yes the Bible

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of of Science and um you know you see

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ads for post-doctoral fellowships and

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virology and you know sort of graduate

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students and sort of biochemistry but in

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the middle of all of these really

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technical ads there was a sort of a

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almost a full-page ad saying we are

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recruiting scientists who are interested

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in researching the origin and evolution

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of Consciousness in the universe I mean

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can you imagine for a for a sort of a

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mainstream biologist sort of biochemist

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looking at this I mean the kind of the

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word the verbiage just blew my mind and

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there was a phone number at the bottom

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uh of of the the page so I naturally I

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was so intrigued I called it and um you

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know I got to talk to

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um Robert Bigelow's assistant and then I

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got to talk to Robert Bigelow and then I

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found myself out in Las Vegas Nevada

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um in uh Robert Bigelow's corporate

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office sort of sitting there

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interviewing me and he hired me a couple

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of weeks later and it was like a a total

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uh life-changing sort of change in

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Direction because I moved from

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mainstream science into what could be

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called you know borderline science or

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liminal science or or you know science

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that was not 100 accepted by the

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mainstream so I mean it was that ad in

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Science magazine that I I could I guess

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say change my life it was the one it was

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the uninvestigated is what it was and

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what year because I want to see where

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that where that possible 1996. yeah

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yeah wow I joined an organization called

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the National Institute for Discovery

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Science and you know the name of the

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National Institute for Discovery Science

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is is worth noting because Discovery is

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the sort of essence of the scientific

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process and that the purpose for for

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nids as it was called for short was to

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actually investigate anomalies and

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investigating anomalies was an inherent

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part of the discovery process in in sort

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of opening up new fields for research so

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I thought that the nomenclature you know

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naming National Institute for Discovery

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Science was a very good move on the part

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of Robert Bigelow the idea of uh

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investigating anomalies is Central to

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Scientific progress you know you can

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stay in a safe Lane and and spend your

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whole career living within the Paradigm

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not risking going outside the boundaries

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of what's acceptable but in the history

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of science the ones that really make the

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difference are the ones that pursue

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anomalies something that doesn't fit the

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General accepted knowledge absolutely I

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couldn't agree more I mean I I and I

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think when Robert Bigelow founded uh

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needs as it became as it became known as

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I think that was a central objective was

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to bring in some mainstream

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quote-unquote scientists we were shortly

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joined by a physicist Eric Davis uh who

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was sort of Since since then become

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quite well known in the UFO circles and

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we also uh hired our Robert Bigelow

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hired a DVM PhD guy named George on that

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who was an expert at animal pathology

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and on the purpose for doing that was

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because this organization was going to

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investigate scientific anomalies among

274
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:05,339
which were cattle mutilations and so the

275
00:12:10,329 --> 00:12:09,120
whole idea of hiring a full-time staff

276
00:12:14,030 --> 00:12:10,339
member

277
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:14,040
of animal pathologist was to actually do

278
00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:16,620
that kind of work and so it was a sort

279
00:12:23,329 --> 00:12:19,260
of an overt attempt to get a jump start

280
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:23,339
on a field that was very very Arcane and

281
00:12:29,690 --> 00:12:26,399
very sort of mysterious I mean thousands

282
00:12:32,630 --> 00:12:29,700
of these cattle beginning in the 1960s

283
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:32,640
and going into the 1970s were being

284
00:12:39,470 --> 00:12:36,480
found dead on ranchers properties with

285
00:12:44,090 --> 00:12:39,480
parts removed either reproductive organs

286
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,100
or lips or eyes or tongues and it was uh

287
00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:46,800
it was a mystery nobody had been caught

288
00:12:53,569 --> 00:12:49,980
or charged in decades which is a very

289
00:12:55,610 --> 00:12:53,579
unusual situation because normally if

290
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:55,620
you've got a quote-unquote serial killer

291
00:13:00,829 --> 00:12:58,079
you know eventually they're caught in

292
00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:00,839
charge but this was decades later during

293
00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:03,000
the 90s and this had been going on for

294
00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:06,060
30 to 40 years without anybody getting

295
00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:10,200
charged or caught so nids nids

296
00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:13,740
you know got a DVM PhD

297
00:13:17,930 --> 00:13:15,540
um animal pathologist

298
00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:17,940
right from the get-go in order to sort

299
00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:19,320
of get a jump start on animal

300
00:13:23,629 --> 00:13:21,720
mutilations we thought we could solve it

301
00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:23,639
and probably you know

302
00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:26,940
um maybe six months to a year but you

303
00:13:32,269 --> 00:13:29,639
know uh we were sort of uh I think we

304
00:13:35,389 --> 00:13:32,279
were met with an awful lot more uh

305
00:13:37,730 --> 00:13:35,399
complexity this really this gets to me

306
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:37,740
because it's like so George has along

307
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,360
the way really kind of educated me on

308
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:41,279
all this history and stuff I didn't know

309
00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:43,680
about animal mutilations I was

310
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,420
interested in nuts and bolts and flying

311
00:13:48,889 --> 00:13:47,279
saucers right over the over time you

312
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:48,899
know George's kind of showed me here's

313
00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:51,360
where the FBI was involved here's in the

314
00:13:54,949 --> 00:13:52,920
70s what happened here are the

315
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:54,959
documented cases the pathology labs and

316
00:13:58,670 --> 00:13:56,639
then working with you I kind of started

317
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,680
getting a bigger picture but just for

318
00:14:02,329 --> 00:14:00,720
our audience or anybody who's unfamiliar

319
00:14:05,170 --> 00:14:02,339
with this when we talk about something

320
00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:05,180
as mysterious as the UFO phenomenon I'd

321
00:14:09,230 --> 00:14:07,620
begrudgingly had to come to an

322
00:14:11,629 --> 00:14:09,240
understanding that possibly something

323
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:11,639
like this what I consider this other

324
00:14:15,290 --> 00:14:13,680
mystery because I wasn't listening to

325
00:14:18,110 --> 00:14:15,300
people who are who were experiencing

326
00:14:21,470 --> 00:14:18,120
this things that this other mystery in

327
00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:21,480
my mind might have or be correlated to

328
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,880
the UFO phenomenon right but when you're

329
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:26,399
studying it with nids at the beginning

330
00:14:30,889 --> 00:14:29,100
a scientific team and and you're you're

331
00:14:32,329 --> 00:14:30,899
you know on the ground you're going to

332
00:14:33,949 --> 00:14:32,339
these things you're doing pathologies

333
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:33,959
you're doing stuff that like other the

334
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:36,480
governments wouldn't do right in your

335
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:38,100
mind did you make any association

336
00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:39,779
immediately that this has something to

337
00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:41,459
do with a bigger phenomenon are you just

338
00:14:45,949 --> 00:14:43,260
looking at mutilations and trying to

339
00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:45,959
find the killers I think a bit of both

340
00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:48,120
um I I know the veterinarian that joined

341
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:49,620
National Institute for Discovery Science

342
00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:52,560
was very skeptical about any possible

343
00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:56,100
linkage between UFOs and calculations

344
00:15:02,410 --> 00:14:59,100
however uh the literature that we looked

345
00:15:05,629 --> 00:15:02,420
into suggested that there were a lot of

346
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:05,639
unusual lights in the sky that usually

347
00:15:12,290 --> 00:15:08,820
were seen by ranchers or people close to

348
00:15:14,030 --> 00:15:12,300
ranchers immediately preceding finding

349
00:15:15,889 --> 00:15:14,040
their animal dead in the posture the

350
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:15,899
following day so that's the last thing

351
00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:17,279
they would report that's been when

352
00:15:21,530 --> 00:15:19,740
George and I have studied specific cases

353
00:15:24,769 --> 00:15:21,540
with this mutilation thing under the

354
00:15:27,230 --> 00:15:24,779
radar although filmed uh what what's

355
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:27,240
interesting is that that's the the last

356
00:15:30,829 --> 00:15:28,680
thing a Rancher wants to tell you

357
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:30,839
they'll tell you somebody [\h__\h] up my

358
00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:33,120
cow and I'd like them arrested I'd like

359
00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:35,160
to find out what's going on yeah but

360
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:37,380
they they're hesitant to tell you the

361
00:15:41,210 --> 00:15:39,300
lights thing or the what what else they

362
00:15:43,009 --> 00:15:41,220
see well I'd add this is you know I've

363
00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:43,019
reported it a number of times the number

364
00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:45,360
we use is there's been at least 10 000

365
00:15:49,970 --> 00:15:48,180
cases reported and uh you know it's

366
00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:49,980
supposedly satanic Cults out there

367
00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:52,320
carving up cows and other animals or

368
00:15:56,569 --> 00:15:54,600
it's coyotes doing it obviously it is

369
00:15:59,090 --> 00:15:56,579
not coyotes or Predators doing it we'll

370
00:16:01,550 --> 00:15:59,100
get into that but also the Cults I mean

371
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:01,560
where are all these Beals above uh

372
00:16:05,449 --> 00:16:03,600
worshipers are running around out in

373
00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:05,459
ranches and how are they have never been

374
00:16:09,530 --> 00:16:07,320
caught the actual number is probably

375
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:09,540
many times that because ranchers

376
00:16:12,829 --> 00:16:11,040
experience this they don't want to deal

377
00:16:14,449 --> 00:16:12,839
with it they dig a hole throw the cow in

378
00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:14,459
it and and just forget about it they

379
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:16,740
don't report it to anyone so the actual

380
00:16:21,769 --> 00:16:19,199
problem could be a lot bigger than than

381
00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:21,779
what anybody knows well it is you and I

382
00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:24,180
all the time get cases associated with

383
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:25,740
this where they're like we want you want

384
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:27,420
to tell you we want to show you photos

385
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:29,279
we don't want it public we don't want

386
00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:32,100
our name and you know one we're able to

387
00:16:36,590 --> 00:16:34,380
go investigate and but the the whole

388
00:16:38,509 --> 00:16:36,600
thing is is that you're right this is

389
00:16:53,410 --> 00:16:38,519
not something that is just on their

390
00:17:00,590 --> 00:16:56,710
got a call from the guy in Dumas Texas

391
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:00,600
and he has what appears to be an

392
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:03,120
exceptionally interesting Academy

393
00:17:06,350 --> 00:17:04,799
relation I'm going to show you the

394
00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:06,360
photos from it

395
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:09,000
see if you think this is a valid case I

396
00:17:13,010 --> 00:17:10,559
like to meet with George Knapp because

397
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:13,020
he has walked the walk for decades

398
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:15,900
before me we're talking about a reporter

399
00:17:21,770 --> 00:17:18,900
who has broken global news from the mob

400
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:21,780
to political investigations he's a

401
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:24,000
touchstone for truth there aren't many

402
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,439
things we can say for sure about this

403
00:17:30,110 --> 00:17:27,600
but there are a couple one is we know at

404
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:30,120
least 10 000 cases in all 50 states

405
00:17:33,409 --> 00:17:32,160
they've been reported since the 1970s

406
00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:33,419
I'm going to share something with you

407
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,700
that is pretty startling this is a paper

408
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,440
that was written by needs National

409
00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:39,360
Institute for Discovery Science one of

410
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:40,860
the investigations that They carried out

411
00:17:45,169 --> 00:17:43,440
was in Montana there was a sheriff his

412
00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:45,179
county is home to Malmstrom Air Force

413
00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:47,340
Base nuclear missiles yeah and there

414
00:17:51,049 --> 00:17:49,080
were a whole outbreak of these UFO

415
00:17:53,930 --> 00:17:51,059
sightings over the missile bases but by

416
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:53,940
the way just interject in Dumas Texas is

417
00:17:59,289 --> 00:17:56,400
one of the largest nuclear missile

418
00:18:03,190 --> 00:17:59,299
disarmament and maintenance facilities

419
00:18:07,490 --> 00:18:06,049
extraordinary coincidence well it is

420
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,500
exactly the pattern that happened in

421
00:18:12,110 --> 00:18:09,360
Montana over a series of years they had

422
00:18:14,029 --> 00:18:12,120
something like 200 mutilations in this

423
00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:14,039
guy's County and it was happening in the

424
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,200
same time period that UFOs were

425
00:18:20,270 --> 00:18:18,480
appearing over these missile silos as

426
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:20,280
some of those silos were taken down they

427
00:18:24,289 --> 00:18:22,320
were inoperative for a period of time by

428
00:18:26,690 --> 00:18:24,299
what the story has put out its mystery

429
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:26,700
helicopters holy [\h__\h] it was reported by

430
00:18:30,409 --> 00:18:28,140
The Washington Post and the world

431
00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:30,419
ignored it it's well documented this is

432
00:18:35,870 --> 00:18:34,020
a report by the FBI in the late 70s a

433
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:35,880
big outbreak of Cattlemen relations and

434
00:18:38,930 --> 00:18:37,679
some U.S senators said hey let's get to

435
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,940
the bottom of this the ranchers are

436
00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:41,039
raised in hell and they hired an ex-fbi

437
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:42,840
agent and basically gave him an

438
00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:44,880
assignment explain this this is the

439
00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:47,700
actual FBI in the FBI right he took a

440
00:18:51,409 --> 00:18:49,740
lot of legitimate evidence and then gave

441
00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:51,419
a whitewash explanation that it's

442
00:18:56,570 --> 00:18:53,340
Predators it's [\h__\h] it's not

443
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:56,580
Predators contrary to the FBI and the

444
00:19:00,110 --> 00:18:57,840
government's attempts to wipe this away

445
00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:00,120
with that that report yeah the mystery

446
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:02,280
continues if cattle mutilation

447
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:04,679
does happen in waves we have a

448
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,419
re-emergence there have been you know

449
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:08,400
really concerted efforts to make the

450
00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:11,039
public ignore it and explain it away the

451
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,780
Public's not stupid Witnesses are

452
00:19:17,210 --> 00:19:14,640
reaching out to me now it's [\h__\h]

453
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:17,220
amazing when I started doing this I

454
00:19:21,890 --> 00:19:19,020
never wanted to touch the mutilation

455
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:21,900
topic so strange and Fringe people

456
00:19:27,049 --> 00:19:24,240
equate them with UFOs and government

457
00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:27,059
conspiracies but I can't ignore the

458
00:19:30,890 --> 00:19:29,400
facts there's physical evidence and when

459
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:30,900
there's physical evidence there's

460
00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:32,880
something we can learn from that you see

461
00:19:37,310 --> 00:19:35,160
patterns happening here that are

462
00:19:39,710 --> 00:19:37,320
intertwined with these cases of true

463
00:19:42,110 --> 00:19:39,720
mutilation

464
00:19:44,690 --> 00:19:42,120
yeah

465
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,700
Jesus

466
00:19:47,870 --> 00:19:46,320
when you start out with this

467
00:19:50,570 --> 00:19:47,880
investigation and nids is doing it

468
00:19:54,169 --> 00:19:50,580
there's anecdotal accounts of witnesses

469
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:54,179
ranchers lawmen who see strange lights

470
00:19:58,909 --> 00:19:56,160
in the sky black helicopters and things

471
00:20:00,350 --> 00:19:58,919
of that sort in association with you uh

472
00:20:02,210 --> 00:20:00,360
the cattle mutilations the animal

473
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,220
mutilations but there isn't really any

474
00:20:06,590 --> 00:20:04,799
solid proof do you start the

475
00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:06,600
investigation looking at the physical

476
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:08,460
evidence or do you start with a premise

477
00:20:13,070 --> 00:20:10,500
that maybe it's involved or you don't

478
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,080
allow yourself to establish it well we

479
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:15,600
we really did not

480
00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:18,320
um begin to correlate any sort of

481
00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:20,700
correlations with uh with the UFO

482
00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:23,100
phenomena at the very beginning our

483
00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:26,460
whole uh idea was to convince law

484
00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:30,360
enforcement and ranchers to report these

485
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:32,340
things to us as quickly as possible

486
00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:35,760
because remember in the summer if if a

487
00:20:42,770 --> 00:20:38,760
cow drops dead with wounds to the body

488
00:20:45,049 --> 00:20:42,780
you've essentially got 48 hours max in

489
00:20:48,289 --> 00:20:45,059
order to get there get on the scene

490
00:20:50,810 --> 00:20:48,299
and then take samples you conduct a full

491
00:20:54,409 --> 00:20:50,820
what's called a necropsy an animal

492
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:54,419
biopsy or autopsy and sort of take a

493
00:20:59,570 --> 00:20:57,360
whole bunch of of tissues and then send

494
00:21:01,789 --> 00:20:59,580
them to a variety of Laboratories but

495
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:01,799
you the clock is ticking once that

496
00:21:07,010 --> 00:21:04,440
animal hits the ground you know you've

497
00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:07,020
got the obliteration of evidence that

498
00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:08,580
starts happening especially in the

499
00:21:14,029 --> 00:21:11,460
summer with summer heat you've got sort

500
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:14,039
of uh Decay happens really quickly now

501
00:21:21,409 --> 00:21:18,240
it accelerated even more because the cow

502
00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:21,419
has multiple stomachs which are full of

503
00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:23,460
these bacteria that just explode when

504
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:25,260
the animal dies so you're running

505
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:28,500
against the clock so the the idea for

506
00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:30,960
nids was to contact

507
00:21:34,370 --> 00:21:32,700
UM hundreds and hundreds of ranchers

508
00:21:36,529 --> 00:21:34,380
hundreds of law enforcement people

509
00:21:39,169 --> 00:21:36,539
around the country veterinarians

510
00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:39,179
veterinarian associations so we set up

511
00:21:43,970 --> 00:21:41,940
this hotline that we had so that law

512
00:21:45,950 --> 00:21:43,980
enforcement people could call because a

513
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:45,960
lot of the time Ranchers would call a

514
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:47,880
law enforcement and say look there's

515
00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:49,919
obviously some Monkey Business going on

516
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:52,020
on my property because I've had a couple

517
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:54,960
of animals died and they're not being

518
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,559
killed by Coyotes so we we would get a

519
00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:00,720
call from law enforcement and say you

520
00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:04,020
know in you know Northern Montana we've

521
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:06,360
got a case of this animal died last

522
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:08,340
night so we would have this rapid

523
00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:10,559
reaction response we would get up there

524
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:14,100
within sort of 12 hours or less we'd

525
00:22:17,330 --> 00:22:15,600
have the veterinarian with us the

526
00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:17,340
veterinarian would be on the pasture

527
00:22:22,970 --> 00:22:20,220
conducting a full necropsy on the animal

528
00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:22,980
he'd be taking all of these tissue

529
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:26,340
samples uh he'd be sampling around where

530
00:22:30,649 --> 00:22:28,440
the cuts are you'd be taking blood

531
00:22:33,230 --> 00:22:30,659
samples and all of that and then send

532
00:22:36,529 --> 00:22:33,240
them to a variety of you know histology

533
00:22:38,930 --> 00:22:36,539
Labs biochemical chemical analysis so we

534
00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:38,940
went the whole Monty on the on the

535
00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:41,220
animal mutilation phenomenon and you

536
00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:43,140
know it was a very expensive process I

537
00:22:48,049 --> 00:22:45,720
mean it was not locally Robert Bigelow

538
00:22:49,850 --> 00:22:48,059
had a lot of money to put into National

539
00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:49,860
Institute for Discovery Science but

540
00:22:56,690 --> 00:22:53,340
doing this for an animal was not uh not

541
00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:56,700
cheap right and I mean from a Rancher it

542
00:23:02,510 --> 00:22:59,940
made zero economic sense to pour a whole

543
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:02,520
bunch of money into finding out how his

544
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,740
animal died he'd already lost his money

545
00:23:08,570 --> 00:23:06,960
once that animal hit the posture so

546
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:08,580
there was really no point in doing that

547
00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:10,320
but no one had ever done this before

548
00:23:16,010 --> 00:23:12,600
certainly not on this scale not on this

549
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:16,020
no not at the level of uh of analytical

550
00:23:20,510 --> 00:23:19,260
depth that needs went into and you know

551
00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:20,520
like I said we had a full-time

552
00:23:26,270 --> 00:23:22,740
veterinarian having a full-time

553
00:23:29,390 --> 00:23:26,280
veterinarian capable of conducting full

554
00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:29,400
necropsies when the animal is still in

555
00:23:35,149 --> 00:23:32,580
that 48-hour period before death was a

556
00:23:37,669 --> 00:23:35,159
very unique thing because I mean we

557
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:37,679
tried Contracting veterinarians later on

558
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:40,320
and uh you know having a veterinarian

559
00:23:44,690 --> 00:23:42,480
who's extremely busy has a high case

560
00:23:47,570 --> 00:23:44,700
load getting that veterinarian out to a

561
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,580
past you're within you know 24 hours was

562
00:23:51,409 --> 00:23:49,440
a chore it was a lot of the time it

563
00:23:53,630 --> 00:23:51,419
wasn't possible so having a full-time

564
00:23:55,850 --> 00:23:53,640
veterinarian really helped let me ask

565
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:55,860
you is it burning so

566
00:24:01,310 --> 00:23:58,799
everybody hearing about this so what is

567
00:24:03,169 --> 00:24:01,320
the difference animals are killed and by

568
00:24:05,870 --> 00:24:03,179
Predators all the time right there's

569
00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:05,880
signature things why is this even worth

570
00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:08,460
the investigation what are the key

571
00:24:13,789 --> 00:24:10,860
Hallmarks of a CA that you saw

572
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:13,799
repeatedly Case by case repeated that

573
00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:16,320
tells you this is something other than

574
00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:17,820
normal Predator animals give me a

575
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:19,260
laundry list tell me what you've seen

576
00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:20,880
well

577
00:24:26,990 --> 00:24:23,940
the uh the the first obvious uh

578
00:24:29,570 --> 00:24:27,000
difference is that a predator when they

579
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:29,580
attack a cow you know whether it be

580
00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:32,159
coyotes or Wolves or or whatever

581
00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:34,860
Predator uh cats

582
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:37,980
um there's a lot of mess you know they

583
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,440
open up the abdomen they open up you

584
00:24:44,690 --> 00:24:42,480
know various parts of the animal and

585
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:44,700
there's a huge amount of Blood on the on

586
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,520
the grass there's a lot of entrails

587
00:24:52,810 --> 00:24:50,159
spread around I mean we've seen this uh

588
00:24:55,370 --> 00:24:52,820
so so it's uh it's pretty obvious

589
00:24:57,370 --> 00:24:55,380
complete contrast with that with a

590
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:57,380
cattle mutilation is there's usually

591
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:01,200
pretty precise Cuts around the anus for

592
00:25:06,169 --> 00:25:03,360
example would be cord out you can see

593
00:25:08,029 --> 00:25:06,179
the edges of the wounds on the hide and

594
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:08,039
they're very sharp edges I mean it looks

595
00:25:13,549 --> 00:25:10,559
like some kind of a scalpel or a

596
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:13,559
surgical instrument has been used a lot

597
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,260
of the time you see eyes removed and you

598
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:18,720
see a sort of a a really sharp cut

599
00:25:25,070 --> 00:25:21,480
around the eyes we've even looked at the

600
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:25,080
hair on on under a microscope of around

601
00:25:31,130 --> 00:25:28,320
the eyes and you can see how how crisp

602
00:25:33,230 --> 00:25:31,140
the cuts are from around the eyes ears

603
00:25:36,169 --> 00:25:33,240
are are a lot of the time lopped off

604
00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:36,179
sometimes you know the ear carries a a

605
00:25:41,090 --> 00:25:38,820
plastic ear tag that the Rancher uses to

606
00:25:43,850 --> 00:25:41,100
identify the animal a lot of time that

607
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:43,860
plastic air tag is gone but the the

608
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:47,039
clean slice through the ear is very very

609
00:25:52,130 --> 00:25:48,600
different

610
00:25:56,450 --> 00:25:52,140
um you know from predators now even even

611
00:26:00,350 --> 00:25:56,460
Birds sometimes can can cause Sharp Cuts

612
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,360
but not the plethora of Sharp Cuts that

613
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:02,159
are very very distinctive around the

614
00:26:07,310 --> 00:26:04,799
animal the next really sort of defining

615
00:26:10,250 --> 00:26:07,320
characteristic is usually lack of blood

616
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,260
you know when when you got cats or

617
00:26:15,610 --> 00:26:13,200
coyotes or wolves attacking cows you

618
00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:15,620
know the mess is unbelievable

619
00:26:20,930 --> 00:26:17,820
in many of these cases that we

620
00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:20,940
investigated there's really no blood in

621
00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:23,100
the animal or underneath the animal or

622
00:26:29,870 --> 00:26:26,220
on the animal so now that's not all

623
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:29,880
cases but in some cases we had a we had

624
00:26:35,149 --> 00:26:32,580
a case that's been well documented in uh

625
00:26:39,289 --> 00:26:35,159
on the Skinwalker Ranch in Utah for

626
00:26:42,970 --> 00:26:39,299
example where you know an 84 pound calf

627
00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:42,980
that had been born the night previously

628
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,500
was found dead on the pasture

629
00:26:53,149 --> 00:26:48,900
the Rancher and his wife had tagged this

630
00:26:55,970 --> 00:26:53,159
animal just 45 minutes prior they were

631
00:26:59,570 --> 00:26:55,980
still in the pasture and sort of maybe

632
00:27:01,610 --> 00:26:59,580
200 300 yards away and they their dogs

633
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:01,620
started acting up so they went to

634
00:27:06,049 --> 00:27:04,140
investigate and they found the mother of

635
00:27:08,990 --> 00:27:06,059
the calf that had been they had just

636
00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:09,000
tagged uh dragging its feet and sort of

637
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:11,640
acting very strangely They Came Upon

638
00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:13,440
This calf that they had tagged 45

639
00:27:18,169 --> 00:27:16,200
minutes previously the calf was spread

640
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:18,179
out on the pasture on their photographs

641
00:27:22,810 --> 00:27:20,640
on the internet of this we did a full

642
00:27:26,149 --> 00:27:22,820
report and we published it many times

643
00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:26,159
but the calf was like spread eagled out

644
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:30,120
on the on the pasture all four legs well

645
00:27:35,090 --> 00:27:32,640
three legs were sort of spread out one

646
00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:35,100
of the legs was was about 10 feet away

647
00:27:39,769 --> 00:27:37,140
from the animal but the interesting

648
00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:39,779
thing was that we flew up on Robert

649
00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:42,900
Bigelow's private jet we were standing

650
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:45,480
over that animal within seven hours of

651
00:27:49,130 --> 00:27:46,559
death

652
00:27:52,909 --> 00:27:49,140
so the animal was still fresh I mean you

653
00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:52,919
could see the animals uh pinkish flesh

654
00:27:59,269 --> 00:27:55,460
was not a drop of blood in the animal

655
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:59,279
its entire body cavity was empty all you

656
00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:01,200
could see was the sort of the spine

657
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:04,500
running down from head head head to

658
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:08,159
stern of the animal and the uh the legs

659
00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:12,000
were were spread out it was almost like

660
00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:12,600
um

661
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:17,520
the calf had been very carefully laid on

662
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:19,039
the grass

663
00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:21,480
not a drop of blood in the animal

664
00:28:25,610 --> 00:28:23,940
underneath the animal we actually went

665
00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:25,620
to the trouble of going to the local

666
00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:27,960
abattoir we got four liters of blood

667
00:28:33,409 --> 00:28:31,260
just in case you know this a lot of

668
00:28:36,049 --> 00:28:33,419
blood have had sort of seeped into the

669
00:28:38,029 --> 00:28:36,059
ground and disappeared it had not rained

670
00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:38,039
during that period so there was really

671
00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:40,980
no way that the the blood had been

672
00:28:45,769 --> 00:28:43,740
washed off but the thing was not a

673
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:45,779
single drop of blood on the animal when

674
00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:48,720
we poured blood on that grass it was

675
00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:51,460
obvious it was so obvious

676
00:28:59,090 --> 00:28:57,350
the Gormans were especially sensitive

677
00:29:01,850 --> 00:28:59,100
because of the losses they'd already

678
00:29:04,430 --> 00:29:01,860
suffered out of a herd of 80 cattle they

679
00:29:07,549 --> 00:29:04,440
lost 14 head prior to the arrival of

680
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:07,559
nids some disappeared others were sliced

681
00:29:12,529 --> 00:29:10,140
up twelve more cows and calves were

682
00:29:14,510 --> 00:29:12,539
killed while mids was on the ranch their

683
00:29:16,730 --> 00:29:14,520
neighbors the Garcias lost several

684
00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:16,740
animals as well some of their cattle

685
00:29:20,269 --> 00:29:18,299
appeared to have been killed by being

686
00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:20,279
dropped onto the pasture from a great

687
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:22,799
height the cattle mutilation mystery has

688
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:25,200
been reported in at least 15 states

689
00:29:29,810 --> 00:29:28,080
dating back to the 1960s thousands of

690
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:29,820
animals have been sliced up with

691
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:32,100
surgical Precision mostly under the

692
00:29:36,889 --> 00:29:34,620
cover of Darkness if humans are doing it

693
00:29:39,169 --> 00:29:36,899
not a single suspect has ever been

694
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:39,179
caught for the Gormans the livestock

695
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:41,700
losses were devastating both financially

696
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:44,460
and psychologically and then things got

697
00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:46,320
worse

698
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:50,340
on March 10 1997 Tom Gorman and his wife

699
00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:52,080
walked out of their home and into the

700
00:29:56,750 --> 00:29:54,600
pasture planning to tag the ears of

701
00:29:58,909 --> 00:29:56,760
several calves that had been born in the

702
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:58,919
preceding days it was a bright clear

703
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:01,679
morning snow was on the ground 50 yards

704
00:30:05,889 --> 00:30:03,120
from their house they found the first

705
00:30:09,529 --> 00:30:05,899
calf as they were with their their dog

706
00:30:11,870 --> 00:30:09,539
the two of them tagged and weighed this

707
00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:11,880
animal they they checked it at I believe

708
00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:13,620
was 84 pounds

709
00:30:19,130 --> 00:30:17,880
or 87 pounds and they left the animal

710
00:30:20,810 --> 00:30:19,140
there

711
00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:20,820
with the with the mother everything

712
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:23,100
seemed to be fine although they did

713
00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:26,880
detect an odor in the air around this uh

714
00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:30,120
area they they detected a strong musk

715
00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:31,740
smell

716
00:30:36,590 --> 00:30:33,779
um they took note of it and then they

717
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:36,600
headed west and they went about 300

718
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:39,360
yards west beyond the the dog run was is

719
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:42,000
not was not there at the time but about

720
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:44,480
300 yards Beyond

721
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:47,460
towards where that incline is

722
00:30:49,789 --> 00:30:48,000
um

723
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:49,799
and they were tagging a second animal

724
00:30:54,769 --> 00:30:52,559
only 30 to 40 minutes had passed the

725
00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:54,779
Gormans had an unobstructed view of

726
00:30:59,510 --> 00:30:56,640
everything in the field but didn't see

727
00:31:01,789 --> 00:30:59,520
or hear anything unusual until their dog

728
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:01,799
focused its attention back toward the

729
00:31:06,889 --> 00:31:04,559
house and the first calf the dog with

730
00:31:08,990 --> 00:31:06,899
them down here at this stage began to

731
00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:09,000
act really strangely it started growling

732
00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:11,039
the hair on the back of its neck went up

733
00:31:17,149 --> 00:31:13,559
and it started facing back

734
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,159
towards here growling and snarling and

735
00:31:21,889 --> 00:31:19,919
then it just took off West away from

736
00:31:24,409 --> 00:31:21,899
this spot it just took off it was never

737
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:24,419
seen again the Gormans were curious and

738
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:26,399
walked back across the field first thing

739
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:28,980
they saw was the mother of the animal

740
00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:32,399
was running back and forth kind of in a

741
00:31:37,010 --> 00:31:33,620
in a

742
00:31:39,769 --> 00:31:37,020
sort of half circle from about this area

743
00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:39,779
to the fence line just running back and

744
00:31:44,269 --> 00:31:41,940
forth and it was limping I mean it was

745
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:44,279
dragging its foot it was limping they

746
00:31:48,289 --> 00:31:46,320
met the animal

747
00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:48,299
and they noticed that it was just

748
00:31:52,970 --> 00:31:50,760
totally out of breath it was panting it

749
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:52,980
was obviously in deep stress and it was

750
00:31:57,649 --> 00:31:55,080
dragging one leg and then they noticed

751
00:31:59,630 --> 00:31:57,659
the calf or what was left of it

752
00:32:00,590 --> 00:31:59,640
spread eagle on the ground just about

753
00:32:03,470 --> 00:32:00,600
here

754
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:03,480
with uh was it was lying with all four

755
00:32:09,529 --> 00:32:06,480
limbs just spread on the ground all of

756
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:09,539
its internal body cavity was gone it was

757
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:12,720
completely pretty well all of its muscle

758
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:16,320
was gone from the from the Torso the

759
00:32:22,370 --> 00:32:19,919
legs were still intact but the one of

760
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:22,380
the ears was also gone so

761
00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:24,960
they called Ned's the Rancher placed a

762
00:32:28,909 --> 00:32:26,940
call to the nid's investigators who'd

763
00:32:31,610 --> 00:32:28,919
returned to Las Vegas for a rare weekend

764
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:31,620
off within a few hours a four-man team

765
00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:33,600
including a veterinarian was on the

766
00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:34,799
scene

767
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:37,320
that cropsy started and the first thing

768
00:32:41,510 --> 00:32:39,360
that the veterinarian noticed during the

769
00:32:43,549 --> 00:32:41,520
necropsy was that the the ear of the

770
00:32:45,289 --> 00:32:43,559
animal had been sliced off with a very

771
00:32:48,110 --> 00:32:45,299
sharp instrument

772
00:32:51,010 --> 00:32:48,120
possibly a scalpel and the air had

773
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:51,020
contained a very large plastic Yellow

774
00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:55,679
Tag like a an air tag that they had just

775
00:33:01,210 --> 00:32:59,820
put on and it was gone so the necropsy

776
00:33:03,889 --> 00:33:01,220
proceeded

777
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:03,899
about 10 feet away from the animal there

778
00:33:08,269 --> 00:33:05,820
was a femur one of the femurs had been

779
00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:08,279
forcibly ripped out of a ball and socket

780
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:10,980
joint which is extremely difficult to do

781
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,380
I mean in terms strength it was it

782
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:15,360
looked initially you know superficially

783
00:33:20,990 --> 00:33:18,360
like a massive Predator had just Lane

784
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:21,000
waste to this animal removed you know 60

785
00:33:25,549 --> 00:33:23,880
pounds of meat in 45 minutes which we

786
00:33:27,470 --> 00:33:25,559
don't know of any predator that could

787
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:27,480
have done that and how could a predator

788
00:33:32,509 --> 00:33:30,000
inflict such Carnage without being seen

789
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,519
or heard by the Rancher his wife or his

790
00:33:37,009 --> 00:33:35,039
dog who were a few hundred yards away in

791
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:37,019
the same field on what was a quiet

792
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:39,600
Sunday morning no four-legged Predator

793
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:42,240
known to science could do it the team

794
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,399
gathered tissue and Bone samples which

795
00:33:48,830 --> 00:33:46,559
were sent to three independent pathology

796
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:48,840
Labs the results arrived later but

797
00:33:53,090 --> 00:33:50,940
confirmed what seemed obvious in the

798
00:33:55,250 --> 00:33:53,100
pasture that day the calf had been

799
00:33:57,889 --> 00:33:55,260
carved up by someone wielding sharp

800
00:34:00,830 --> 00:33:57,899
metallic instruments a heavy machete

801
00:34:03,230 --> 00:34:00,840
like object had slammed into the bones a

802
00:34:05,210 --> 00:34:03,240
smaller scalpel-like knife had sliced

803
00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:05,220
the hide and muscle but closer

804
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:06,600
inspection revealed that it was

805
00:34:11,869 --> 00:34:08,399
definitely sharp instruments used there

806
00:34:14,270 --> 00:34:11,879
was no sign of blood there was no sign

807
00:34:17,149 --> 00:34:14,280
of entrails around it was perfectly

808
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:17,159
clean not a drop of blood on the grass

809
00:34:20,690 --> 00:34:18,960
we weren't even as far as doing an

810
00:34:22,329 --> 00:34:20,700
experiment by pouring blood in the grass

811
00:34:25,310 --> 00:34:22,339
to see how fast it would seep through

812
00:34:27,169 --> 00:34:25,320
videotape the grass and showed you know

813
00:34:29,329 --> 00:34:27,179
even two days later you could still see

814
00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:29,339
the stain on the grass so there was no

815
00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:31,320
blood whatsoever not a single drop

816
00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:33,540
either underneath the animal on the

817
00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:35,700
animal or on the grass it was just

818
00:34:40,609 --> 00:34:38,339
completely clean a professional tracker

819
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:40,619
was brought in he scoured every inch of

820
00:34:44,990 --> 00:34:42,240
ground in and around down the field

821
00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:45,000
looking for tracks human animal or

822
00:34:49,250 --> 00:34:47,399
vehicle nothing eventually the

823
00:34:51,649 --> 00:34:49,260
investigators reached an unsettling

824
00:34:53,629 --> 00:34:51,659
conclusion the bottom line is this

825
00:34:56,089 --> 00:34:53,639
animal must have been killed elsewhere

826
00:34:57,770 --> 00:34:56,099
because there was no blood there was no

827
00:35:00,109 --> 00:34:57,780
blood on the scene and then the animal

828
00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:00,119
must have been brought back laid down

829
00:35:06,050 --> 00:35:03,720
carefully almost you know really almost

830
00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:06,060
ritually on the spot where it had been

831
00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:08,760
tagged the nids team investigated dozens

832
00:35:13,370 --> 00:35:10,740
of Mutilation cases across the country

833
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:13,380
many of the tissue samples were analyzed

834
00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:16,140
in need's own lab in Las Vegas and then

835
00:35:21,230 --> 00:35:18,420
double checked by independent labs they

836
00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:21,240
hired the Utah calf was in a category

837
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:23,640
all its own it seemed akin to

838
00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:26,400
psychological warfare intended to shock

839
00:35:30,530 --> 00:35:28,680
and frighten the witnesses the following

840
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:30,540
night there was another scare in the

841
00:35:34,970 --> 00:35:32,880
darkness of the first Homestead shots

842
00:35:37,490 --> 00:35:34,980
were fired at something that had rattled

843
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:37,500
the herd eventually column Kelleher

844
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:39,359
surmised that the perpetrators

845
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:42,720
responsible for the calf were like an

846
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:45,359
assembly line in a meat packing plant a

847
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:47,520
machine was involved with this Carnage

848
00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:51,599
whatever happened to that calf was a an

849
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:54,790
extraordinarily skillful job

850
00:36:12,829 --> 00:35:58,079
[Music]

851
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:12,839
there's still people that'll say oh

852
00:36:16,609 --> 00:36:14,160
that's a predator that was a mountain

853
00:36:19,130 --> 00:36:16,619
lion that was a wolf obviously it was

854
00:36:21,290 --> 00:36:19,140
you know teeth marks and torn it it's

855
00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:21,300
not a predator it's not an you look for

856
00:36:24,829 --> 00:36:22,740
tracks you had a professional tracker

857
00:36:27,050 --> 00:36:24,839
there right no animal tracks no person

858
00:36:30,050 --> 00:36:27,060
tracks no vehicle tracks

859
00:36:32,089 --> 00:36:30,060
yes I mean we kind of did our due

860
00:36:35,630 --> 00:36:32,099
diligence we hired a professional

861
00:36:39,170 --> 00:36:35,640
tracker and they tracked a two you know

862
00:36:41,210 --> 00:36:39,180
two mile radius of that carcass and they

863
00:36:43,310 --> 00:36:41,220
covered every inch of the ground I mean

864
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:43,320
they did find tracks in the snow that

865
00:36:49,310 --> 00:36:47,280
were very bizarre mysterious tracks but

866
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:49,320
they they were not sort of anywhere

867
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:51,359
close to the animal they were these were

868
00:36:54,650 --> 00:36:53,220
a couple hundred yards away from me and

869
00:36:56,270 --> 00:36:54,660
again this is the broad daylight the

870
00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:56,280
Rancher and his wife are out there if

871
00:37:00,170 --> 00:36:58,079
there's a mountain lion chewing up this

872
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,180
calf they would have heard something

873
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:02,640
yeah it didn't look like chewing so

874
00:37:06,770 --> 00:37:05,040
that's it so George covers this case a

875
00:37:08,270 --> 00:37:06,780
lot in in my Movie hunt for the

876
00:37:11,329 --> 00:37:08,280
skinwalker you know that you guys are

877
00:37:13,490 --> 00:37:11,339
featured in but but I want to really get

878
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,500
into this a little bit as so the volume

879
00:37:18,290 --> 00:37:16,079
of blood in these animals so blood is

880
00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:18,300
missing it's not like it's j and that

881
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:20,460
happened on multiple cases multiple

882
00:37:25,970 --> 00:37:23,460
cases so so seven percent of the

883
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:25,980
animal's body weight is blood so even

884
00:37:32,930 --> 00:37:29,520
with a hundred pound uh calf you know

885
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:32,940
seven percent of that is 3.5 liters you

886
00:37:38,569 --> 00:37:35,280
should have Buckets of Blood all around

887
00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:38,579
the grass and there was not a drop of

888
00:37:43,849 --> 00:37:41,700
blood now as George mentions you know

889
00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:43,859
and not just one case many cases many

890
00:37:47,450 --> 00:37:45,720
many cases yeah I'm just giving you the

891
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:47,460
example because we were standing over

892
00:37:50,990 --> 00:37:49,440
this calf we took a whole bunch of

893
00:37:55,849 --> 00:37:51,000
samples

894
00:37:58,210 --> 00:37:55,859
sharp instruments had been used on the

895
00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:58,220
animal uh scalpels

896
00:38:02,990 --> 00:38:00,720
scissor-like instrument but there was

897
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:03,000
also teeth marks on the animal it was

898
00:38:09,470 --> 00:38:05,940
very very weird now

899
00:38:12,530 --> 00:38:09,480
that was an anomaly in in the case of of

900
00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:12,540
normal cattle mutilations normally what

901
00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:14,940
you've got is an ear is removed an eye

902
00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:16,440
is removed

903
00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:18,180
um sometimes there are wounds on the

904
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:21,599
upper parts of the the neck but a lot of

905
00:38:26,930 --> 00:38:23,640
the time the reproductive organs are are

906
00:38:29,569 --> 00:38:26,940
removed the anus is poured out so it's

907
00:38:32,690 --> 00:38:29,579
sort of a classic series of tongue never

908
00:38:34,730 --> 00:38:32,700
cut yeah the tongue is sometimes removed

909
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:34,740
okay so and you've got the blood out and

910
00:38:40,010 --> 00:38:36,960
then people I know I mean I talked with

911
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:40,020
Gabe Valdez who was the kind of head guy

912
00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:43,200
in who you obviously but I I interviewed

913
00:38:46,490 --> 00:38:44,940
him right before he died at four hours

914
00:38:48,349 --> 00:38:46,500
probably last inner I know it's the last

915
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:48,359
interview you ever did so here's the

916
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,740
deal it's just audio I wasn't really

917
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:52,079
into this stuff back then to hide you

918
00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:53,520
guys thought hey meet this guy in New

919
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:55,560
Mexico what year was that I'll I'll have

920
00:38:57,950 --> 00:38:56,880
to look back and I'll get you exactly

921
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:57,960
that's interesting I got the recording

922
00:39:02,030 --> 00:39:00,480
but basically uh some of the things that

923
00:39:03,770 --> 00:39:02,040
I just want to see if it's confirmed by

924
00:39:07,310 --> 00:39:03,780
your uh interactions with this

925
00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:07,320
experience so chemical analysis was

926
00:39:10,490 --> 00:39:09,060
there anything that was found like

927
00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:10,500
chemical analysis when you look at

928
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,619
wounds and that kind of thing yes that

929
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:15,839
sort of started getting

930
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:19,280
um very mysterious when we started doing

931
00:39:25,450 --> 00:39:22,320
in-depth chemical analysis of the blood

932
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:25,460
in some of these animals we would find

933
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,040
higher levels than there should be of we

934
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:31,200
found a compound called oxendol for

935
00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:33,240
example which is actually a sedative

936
00:39:37,550 --> 00:39:35,880
when used at high concentrations but

937
00:39:40,190 --> 00:39:37,560
it's not a sedative that's used in the

938
00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:40,200
United States it's used in Europe so why

939
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:43,560
would a sedative be in an animal in

940
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:46,800
northeastern Utah on the pasture that's

941
00:39:51,890 --> 00:39:48,900
you know that's not used in the United

942
00:39:54,589 --> 00:39:51,900
States we found high levels of succinate

943
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:54,599
which is a breakdown product of another

944
00:40:00,410 --> 00:39:58,320
anesthetic called succinylcholine we

945
00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:00,420
worked closely with a guy up in Montana

946
00:40:05,630 --> 00:40:03,180
called Captain Keith Wolverton who

947
00:40:08,210 --> 00:40:05,640
actually had done a sterling job back in

948
00:40:09,950 --> 00:40:08,220
the 7 70s and 80s of investigating

949
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:09,960
Capital mutilations around Great Falls

950
00:40:15,890 --> 00:40:12,720
Montana well Wolverton had found

951
00:40:19,730 --> 00:40:15,900
evidence of obvious puncture wounds in

952
00:40:22,849 --> 00:40:19,740
the animal's jugulars they also found to

953
00:40:24,589 --> 00:40:22,859
drain the blood possibly well one of the

954
00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:24,599
one of the occasions they turned the

955
00:40:30,349 --> 00:40:27,000
animal over and they found this large

956
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:30,359
hypodermic needle underneath the the cow

957
00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:33,839
and this was a really weird thing but it

958
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:36,300
started getting us thinking that there's

959
00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:40,380
more to this than meets the eye so so it

960
00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:43,020
you know we we investigated dozens and

961
00:40:48,290 --> 00:40:45,240
dozens and dozens of different cases

962
00:40:50,569 --> 00:40:48,300
Academy Asian cases everywhere from

963
00:40:55,550 --> 00:40:50,579
Washington State to California to

964
00:40:58,250 --> 00:40:55,560
Montana Utah Colorado New Mexico I mean

965
00:41:00,650 --> 00:40:58,260
we covered the gamut and sort of we were

966
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:00,660
able to sort of distinguish two

967
00:41:05,390 --> 00:41:03,599
completely different ammos in the in the

968
00:41:08,089 --> 00:41:05,400
catalog regulation two ammo so what

969
00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:08,099
what's the well the first demo was was

970
00:41:12,530 --> 00:41:10,680
was the case one of the examples of the

971
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:12,540
first demo was the case I just talked

972
00:41:16,730 --> 00:41:14,640
about where the the calf had been

973
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,740
completely

974
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:18,960
um you know ripped apart and sort of

975
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:21,660
laid on the pasture we found other cases

976
00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:24,480
in Northern California where you know

977
00:41:28,849 --> 00:41:26,220
and I had been

978
00:41:30,010 --> 00:41:28,859
very carefully removed and put on the

979
00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:30,020
grass

980
00:41:35,150 --> 00:41:32,220
facing the animals sort of a

981
00:41:37,130 --> 00:41:35,160
psychological sort of uh I mean the

982
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:37,140
animal Hut was dead obviously and and

983
00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:39,720
all of its entrails were gone but there

984
00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:42,420
was this eye the animal's eye from its

985
00:41:49,310 --> 00:41:45,300
its right eye was left carefully with

986
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:49,320
all of the fluid inside the eye staring

987
00:41:55,970 --> 00:41:53,359
at the carcass so this was not a typical

988
00:41:57,230 --> 00:41:55,980
animal mutilation we found a few of

989
00:41:59,870 --> 00:41:57,240
those

990
00:42:03,890 --> 00:41:59,880
um but but by far the largest number we

991
00:42:06,410 --> 00:42:03,900
found was the obvious sort of removal of

992
00:42:08,690 --> 00:42:06,420
the tongue removal of the eye uh

993
00:42:11,450 --> 00:42:08,700
sometimes there was parts of the brain

994
00:42:13,069 --> 00:42:11,460
gone removal of the reproductive organs

995
00:42:14,810 --> 00:42:13,079
were there like was there a hole where

996
00:42:16,990 --> 00:42:14,820
they took the brain out kind of thing no

997
00:42:19,069 --> 00:42:17,000
or any kind of places where you had

998
00:42:21,950 --> 00:42:19,079
organs that are taken out without

999
00:42:25,010 --> 00:42:21,960
incision marks well we came across that

1000
00:42:28,190 --> 00:42:25,020
too which was another very mysterious

1001
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:28,200
part uh for example in northeastern Utah

1002
00:42:34,849 --> 00:42:31,680
we came across a case where

1003
00:42:37,550 --> 00:42:34,859
um this cow had been alive the previous

1004
00:42:39,530 --> 00:42:37,560
day we we did a necropsy the following

1005
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,540
day and

1006
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:41,520
um you know the

1007
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:44,160
the pericardial Sac which surrounds the

1008
00:42:50,569 --> 00:42:47,280
heart was completely intact but the

1009
00:42:53,210 --> 00:42:50,579
heart was shredded as if sort of this

1010
00:42:56,990 --> 00:42:53,220
you know sliced and diced into a sort of

1011
00:42:59,270 --> 00:42:57,000
a pulp but that the pericardium which

1012
00:43:00,829 --> 00:42:59,280
you would normally have to get into in

1013
00:43:02,690 --> 00:43:00,839
order to slice and dice the heart was

1014
00:43:04,609 --> 00:43:02,700
perfectly intact was there any kind of

1015
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,619
incision outside the cow that would

1016
00:43:06,890 --> 00:43:06,000
allow them to get in there that you

1017
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:06,900
notice

1018
00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:09,359
um there was an incision around the eye

1019
00:43:14,210 --> 00:43:12,420
but but a direct root from the eye to to

1020
00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:14,220
the heart was I mean it was very very

1021
00:43:20,089 --> 00:43:16,859
difficult the second thing was that we

1022
00:43:23,329 --> 00:43:20,099
did we did pregnancy analysis on the car

1023
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:23,339
the cow had been pregnant and its womb

1024
00:43:28,130 --> 00:43:25,440
was empty you know it had been been

1025
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:28,140
obviously pregnant the night very

1026
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:31,500
recently so no no evidence of a fetus

1027
00:43:37,010 --> 00:43:34,160
whatsoever we also came across different

1028
00:43:39,890 --> 00:43:37,020
chemicals in in in that particular body

1029
00:43:41,870 --> 00:43:39,900
that shouldn't have been there I gotta I

1030
00:43:43,970 --> 00:43:41,880
gotta back up here very soon so I mean

1031
00:43:46,609 --> 00:43:43,980
so you personally studied this case with

1032
00:43:47,930 --> 00:43:46,619
a pericardium Sac is intact yes only a

1033
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:47,940
hole in the eye and there was a

1034
00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:49,680
shredding of the heart yes and that's

1035
00:43:53,450 --> 00:43:51,540
not like the heart attack explodes the

1036
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:53,460
heart into shreds this is different from

1037
00:43:57,290 --> 00:43:55,440
your personal observation yeah and

1038
00:43:58,910 --> 00:43:57,300
there's other cases where fetuses are

1039
00:44:01,730 --> 00:43:58,920
removed and there's no entry points that

1040
00:44:05,990 --> 00:44:01,740
are obvious right

1041
00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:06,000
Bones Bones have moved without incisions

1042
00:44:10,970 --> 00:44:08,040
um no we never saw that actually I mean

1043
00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:10,980
it just takes one strange I mean so now

1044
00:44:13,609 --> 00:44:12,180
but hold on you're talking about two

1045
00:44:15,410 --> 00:44:13,619
Mo's and I keep thinking about this

1046
00:44:18,170 --> 00:44:15,420
thing you keep telling me called buy

1047
00:44:20,270 --> 00:44:18,180
symmetrical mimicry if if we're talking

1048
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:20,280
about these mutilations are being done

1049
00:44:23,450 --> 00:44:22,079
by like Satanist people that come in

1050
00:44:25,490 --> 00:44:23,460
order okay well no one's ever been

1051
00:44:27,770 --> 00:44:25,500
caught okay next one someone's gonna say

1052
00:44:29,630 --> 00:44:27,780
it's a secret government program right

1053
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:29,640
you did find a syringe and some

1054
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:32,400
sedatives from another country but does

1055
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:33,680
this relate to your idea of

1056
00:44:40,490 --> 00:44:37,680
bi-symmetrical mimicry yes partly yeah

1057
00:44:43,069 --> 00:44:40,500
it does now another another example of

1058
00:44:46,670 --> 00:44:43,079
medical equipment was uh Sheriff text

1059
00:44:48,890 --> 00:44:46,680
Graves uh Logan County Colorado which

1060
00:44:51,770 --> 00:44:48,900
was a really big epicenter of

1061
00:44:54,109 --> 00:44:51,780
calculations in the 1970s and 1980s

1062
00:44:56,750 --> 00:44:54,119
we're talking hundreds and hundreds of

1063
00:44:59,450 --> 00:44:56,760
cases in northeastern Colorado which is

1064
00:45:02,510 --> 00:44:59,460
a big beef part of you know center of

1065
00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:02,520
the country in fact the governor uh

1066
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,220
Governor actually went up

1067
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:06,960
um Governor of Colorado went up in the

1068
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,800
1970s to spec out what was going on

1069
00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:12,480
because it was so prevalent and he

1070
00:45:17,329 --> 00:45:15,480
called it an outrage that so many cattle

1071
00:45:19,730 --> 00:45:17,339
were going down and nobody seemed to

1072
00:45:21,650 --> 00:45:19,740
know why and he he said it was one of

1073
00:45:25,130 --> 00:45:21,660
the biggest outrages that he'd ever seen

1074
00:45:27,710 --> 00:45:25,140
but anyway Sheriff text Graves have been

1075
00:45:30,589 --> 00:45:27,720
investigating a lot of these mutilations

1076
00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:30,599
and he turned an animal over and found

1077
00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:33,300
medical equipment underneath the animal

1078
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:36,180
that was capable of exsanguinating the

1079
00:45:41,150 --> 00:45:38,160
animal which is removing all the blood

1080
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:41,160
from the animal so you know that case

1081
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:43,920
was not very well reported because it

1082
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:47,040
was overlaid on literally hundreds of

1083
00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:48,839
other mutilations where there was no

1084
00:45:54,290 --> 00:45:51,480
medical equipment found and no tracks

1085
00:45:57,290 --> 00:45:54,300
and mysterious lights in the sky so the

1086
00:46:00,109 --> 00:45:57,300
the sort of the general meme at the time

1087
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:00,119
was that you know there was mysterious

1088
00:46:04,030 --> 00:46:02,400
lights in the sky that's seemed to

1089
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:04,040
trigger these cattle mutilations

1090
00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:07,140
therefore there may have been quote

1091
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,740
unquote UFOs involved with with the you

1092
00:46:13,250 --> 00:46:12,480
know the deaths

1093
00:46:16,430 --> 00:46:13,260
um

1094
00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:16,440
I we we investigated a lot of these

1095
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:19,260
cases and we found because of these

1096
00:46:24,890 --> 00:46:22,560
medical associations we postulated that

1097
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:24,900
some kind of sampling exercise might be

1098
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:29,280
going on at the same time as the uh the

1099
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,680
quote unquote genuine mutilation so that

1100
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:34,319
that sort of brings brings this whole

1101
00:46:37,849 --> 00:46:36,839
bi-directional mimicry hypothesis what

1102
00:46:41,809 --> 00:46:37,859
does that mean I don't know what the

1103
00:46:44,510 --> 00:46:41,819
word means so so mimicry here we have a

1104
00:46:47,569 --> 00:46:44,520
phenomenon that began we think in the

1105
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:47,579
1950s that probably began earlier but

1106
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:49,440
you know a lot of the cases started

1107
00:46:55,430 --> 00:46:52,800
emerging in the late 1950s and and 1960s

1108
00:46:57,050 --> 00:46:55,440
of cattle mutilations all the way

1109
00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:57,060
through the western part of the United

1110
00:47:01,630 --> 00:46:59,640
States and also up in Canada

1111
00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:01,640
um and actually in other countries too

1112
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:04,380
so here we have a phenomenon that's

1113
00:47:10,130 --> 00:47:06,960
quote unquote genuine but at the same

1114
00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:10,140
time we're finding these occasional

1115
00:47:16,010 --> 00:47:12,900
cases where it's pretty obvious that

1116
00:47:18,589 --> 00:47:16,020
somebody is using sedatives is using

1117
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:18,599
hypodermic needles and is using medical

1118
00:47:23,809 --> 00:47:22,319
equipment to exsanguinate animals so we

1119
00:47:24,970 --> 00:47:23,819
postulated that there were two things

1120
00:47:27,170 --> 00:47:24,980
going on

1121
00:47:29,569 --> 00:47:27,180
simultaneously that were causing a lot

1122
00:47:31,490 --> 00:47:29,579
of confusion you've got number one a

1123
00:47:34,329 --> 00:47:31,500
quote unquote genuine phenomenon and

1124
00:47:37,010 --> 00:47:34,339
number two you've got this medical

1125
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:37,020
surveillance project that has been

1126
00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:40,640
carried out knowing that you know most

1127
00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:44,099
veterinarians will not touch a mutilated

1128
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:46,440
animal because the quote-unquote aliens

1129
00:47:53,809 --> 00:47:50,720
are associated with mutilated animals so

1130
00:47:55,490 --> 00:47:53,819
these these small covert surveillance

1131
00:47:58,550 --> 00:47:55,500
programs

1132
00:48:01,609 --> 00:47:58,560
um that are being carried out

1133
00:48:03,770 --> 00:48:01,619
um are being carried out knowing uh that

1134
00:48:06,410 --> 00:48:03,780
the all overall umbrella of Cattlemen

1135
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:06,420
relations is protecting the perpetrators

1136
00:48:10,730 --> 00:48:09,119
from being caught so I mean that's the

1137
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:10,740
bi-directional mimic where you've got

1138
00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:12,960
you've got the quote unquote real

1139
00:48:18,050 --> 00:48:15,720
phenomenon you've got a a small program

1140
00:48:20,210 --> 00:48:18,060
that's hiding underneath the phenomenon

1141
00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:20,220
and then you've got the phenomenon

1142
00:48:25,849 --> 00:48:22,859
that's actually mimicking you know the

1143
00:48:28,430 --> 00:48:25,859
uh the the the government surveillance

1144
00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:28,440
program so you've got this you can you

1145
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,660
can create these Z plots but the problem

1146
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:33,119
is that you're looking at cattle

1147
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:36,480
mutilations through the lens of two

1148
00:48:41,870 --> 00:48:39,359
layers of deception you know so you've

1149
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:41,880
got the layer of dissection from the uh

1150
00:48:47,930 --> 00:48:44,880
from the phenomenon you've also got the

1151
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:47,940
layer of deception from the

1152
00:48:53,930 --> 00:48:50,640
um the government program that is using

1153
00:48:56,809 --> 00:48:53,940
in cattle mutilations as a cover for a

1154
00:48:59,930 --> 00:48:56,819
surveillance effort so you've got two

1155
00:49:02,510 --> 00:48:59,940
layers of deception it's very very

1156
00:49:04,490 --> 00:49:02,520
difficult for an outsider coming into

1157
00:49:06,890 --> 00:49:04,500
this to penetrate those two layers of

1158
00:49:10,430 --> 00:49:06,900
deception you can draw exactly the same

1159
00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:10,440
plot for the UFO phenomenon you know UFO

1160
00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:12,660
phenomenon starts off as being genuine

1161
00:49:18,290 --> 00:49:15,300
then you I mean we interviewed Colonel

1162
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:18,300
Barry Hennessy who was the head of the

1163
00:49:23,870 --> 00:49:22,260
infamous afosi PJ we interviewed him as

1164
00:49:27,050 --> 00:49:23,880
part of the OSAP program

1165
00:49:28,730 --> 00:49:27,060
this I mean he blatantly told us he

1166
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:28,740
didn't tell us on camera but he told us

1167
00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:32,160
that they had used the UFO phenomenon as

1168
00:49:37,190 --> 00:49:34,920
a cover for their Advanced projects and

1169
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:37,200
this guy was part of the Air Force the

1170
00:49:41,450 --> 00:49:39,599
afosi so

1171
00:49:43,130 --> 00:49:41,460
um so we have the same thing we've got a

1172
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:43,140
we've got a quote unquote genuine

1173
00:49:47,870 --> 00:49:46,079
phenomenon we've got a series of

1174
00:49:52,190 --> 00:49:47,880
advanced technology projects special

1175
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:52,200
Access program uh going on using the UFO

1176
00:49:57,710 --> 00:49:55,440
as a as a cover and then you've got this

1177
00:50:01,250 --> 00:49:57,720
sort of reverse engineering setup that's

1178
00:50:04,190 --> 00:50:01,260
going on that are creating these

1179
00:50:06,109 --> 00:50:04,200
um you know special access programs that

1180
00:50:08,690 --> 00:50:06,119
are are happening and then you've got

1181
00:50:10,670 --> 00:50:08,700
the phenomenon that is mimicking these

1182
00:50:14,089 --> 00:50:10,680
special access programs you know you've

1183
00:50:16,910 --> 00:50:14,099
got helicopters with impossible levels

1184
00:50:19,490 --> 00:50:16,920
of of acceleration you've got you know

1185
00:50:22,370 --> 00:50:19,500
craft flying around the place

1186
00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:22,380
um that look like triangular craft that

1187
00:50:27,410 --> 00:50:24,839
that should be part of the you know Air

1188
00:50:29,450 --> 00:50:27,420
Force Arsenal but they're probably the

1189
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:29,460
phenomenon so you've got this two layers

1190
00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:31,440
of deception with the UFO phenomenon so

1191
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:32,760
the question is

1192
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:35,160
which we've been asking for decades are

1193
00:50:40,190 --> 00:50:37,920
they ours are theirs you you uh

1194
00:50:42,050 --> 00:50:40,200
eventually wrote a book about your ideas

1195
00:50:44,030 --> 00:50:42,060
Brain Trust it was right where you're

1196
00:50:46,490 --> 00:50:44,040
looking at the the two levels so there

1197
00:50:51,530 --> 00:50:46,500
is a legitimate mystery something

1198
00:50:53,809 --> 00:50:51,540
carving up cattle horses sheep dogs cats

1199
00:50:55,970 --> 00:50:53,819
deer other wild animals well it's not

1200
00:50:57,290 --> 00:50:55,980
just it's not just cows right that

1201
00:51:00,290 --> 00:50:57,300
something has been doing this taking

1202
00:51:03,290 --> 00:51:00,300
particular Parts uh I'd be interested in

1203
00:51:05,410 --> 00:51:03,300
why those parts what what they whoever

1204
00:51:07,849 --> 00:51:05,420
they are could learn from it and then

1205
00:51:10,010 --> 00:51:07,859
the secondary monitoring either

1206
00:51:12,170 --> 00:51:10,020
government or industry that is tracking

1207
00:51:13,849 --> 00:51:12,180
something through the food chain what

1208
00:51:15,710 --> 00:51:13,859
were they looking for what what could be

1209
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:15,720
learned based on the parts that are

1210
00:51:21,410 --> 00:51:17,280
being taken from these various animals

1211
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:21,420
well we put out the hypothesis at nid's

1212
00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:26,160
back in 2003 we were looking for what

1213
00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:30,240
could possibly be of such interest that

1214
00:51:33,650 --> 00:51:31,980
I mean normally if you want to track

1215
00:51:36,049 --> 00:51:33,660
something you go to to slaughter houses

1216
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:36,059
and you gather samples I mean there's no

1217
00:51:40,790 --> 00:51:38,160
there's nothing mysterious about that

1218
00:51:43,549 --> 00:51:40,800
but if you want to track spread of

1219
00:51:45,650 --> 00:51:43,559
something through herds in the wild

1220
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:45,660
um the way you do it is illegal I mean

1221
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:48,240
you basically start sampling animals if

1222
00:51:52,010 --> 00:51:50,400
if it's Wildlife it's not illegal but if

1223
00:51:54,770 --> 00:51:52,020
these are cattle that are owned by

1224
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:54,780
ranchers it is illegal so you do it

1225
00:52:00,410 --> 00:51:58,079
under under covert yeah why wouldn't the

1226
00:52:02,510 --> 00:52:00,420
government just have their own staple of

1227
00:52:04,250 --> 00:52:02,520
cows that they would yeah why would you

1228
00:52:06,410 --> 00:52:04,260
go steal somebody's cow instead because

1229
00:52:09,470 --> 00:52:06,420
you're tracking something that's that's

1230
00:52:11,650 --> 00:52:09,480
moving through the food chain in the in

1231
00:52:14,450 --> 00:52:11,660
the west of the United States

1232
00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:14,460
okay yeah yeah I mean we're eating cows

1233
00:52:17,750 --> 00:52:15,720
right right but we're not eating the

1234
00:52:19,849 --> 00:52:17,760
government's cows so it's not that's why

1235
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:19,859
they're do well well I mean the the the

1236
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:23,520
real kicker here is that there's a long

1237
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:25,440
history of

1238
00:52:29,530 --> 00:52:27,359
um I mean nids came up with the

1239
00:52:31,970 --> 00:52:29,540
hypothesis that one of the possible

1240
00:52:33,010 --> 00:52:31,980
infectious organisms that could be

1241
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,020
traveling

1242
00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:35,760
surreptitiously through the herds was

1243
00:52:40,210 --> 00:52:38,040
what what is called a prion which is an

1244
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:40,220
infectious protein indestructible

1245
00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:43,280
indestructible and it it actually

1246
00:52:47,390 --> 00:52:45,900
has destroyed a lot of the elk

1247
00:52:49,250 --> 00:52:47,400
population a lot of the deer population

1248
00:52:52,790 --> 00:52:49,260
in the western part of the United States

1249
00:52:56,809 --> 00:52:52,800
and Canada but you know it also infects

1250
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:56,819
cows it infects deers and Elk so we we

1251
00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:00,000
looked at the hypothesis that the

1252
00:53:05,210 --> 00:53:02,760
Infectious organism which is a very

1253
00:53:08,930 --> 00:53:05,220
devastating disease a brain disease

1254
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:08,940
called Christian Jakob syndrome where

1255
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:12,480
you're a human's brain turns to Swiss

1256
00:53:18,829 --> 00:53:15,119
cheese in cows is called mad cow disease

1257
00:53:21,950 --> 00:53:18,839
and it erupted in the United Kingdom in

1258
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:21,960
the 1990s and you know people who were

1259
00:53:27,530 --> 00:53:25,680
who were eating infected meat came down

1260
00:53:29,930 --> 00:53:27,540
young people came down with these

1261
00:53:33,049 --> 00:53:29,940
devastating brain diseases where the

1262
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:33,059
brains became swiss cheese and they but

1263
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:36,240
you know incurable obviously so the

1264
00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:37,980
hypothesis that we were looking at is

1265
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:41,640
that this is so sort of toxic and very

1266
00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:43,200
very

1267
00:53:48,650 --> 00:53:46,020
um I guess inflammatory

1268
00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:48,660
um is that a covert program was was

1269
00:53:55,730 --> 00:53:52,200
launched in the 60s and 70s to see how

1270
00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:55,740
far uh these prions might have got from

1271
00:54:00,770 --> 00:53:58,260
Wildlife into the food chain when you

1272
00:54:03,049 --> 00:54:00,780
say covert you mean a government decided

1273
00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:03,059
Well probably a contractor a Contractor

1274
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,819
on behest of a government yes

1275
00:54:10,130 --> 00:54:07,920
um did a covert program to track prions

1276
00:54:12,349 --> 00:54:10,140
through the food chain that that was the

1277
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:12,359
hypothesis that we we were looking at

1278
00:54:16,609 --> 00:54:13,280
because

1279
00:54:19,490 --> 00:54:16,619
there is a uh you know it was a very

1280
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:19,500
bizarre series of

1281
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:21,359
um cause and effects that led to that

1282
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:24,720
hypothesis but to cut a long story short

1283
00:54:31,549 --> 00:54:28,319
an NIH scientist out in Papua New Guinea

1284
00:54:33,530 --> 00:54:31,559
uh was investigating this bizarre brain

1285
00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:33,540
disease that people in Papua New Guinea

1286
00:54:37,250 --> 00:54:35,700
were coming down with Edibles yeah there

1287
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:37,260
were cannibals they were eating their

1288
00:54:41,390 --> 00:54:39,839
dead as a sign of respect but the

1289
00:54:43,549 --> 00:54:41,400
problem with eating their dead was they

1290
00:54:45,549 --> 00:54:43,559
were eating the these people's brains

1291
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:45,559
and they were come down with this

1292
00:54:51,349 --> 00:54:48,240
uncontrollable shaking and they would

1293
00:54:54,890 --> 00:54:51,359
die soon you know within a year or two

1294
00:54:57,410 --> 00:54:54,900
of of symptoms starting so this guy his

1295
00:55:00,650 --> 00:54:57,420
name was Carlton gajushek

1296
00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:00,660
um he got the bright idea of

1297
00:55:05,089 --> 00:55:02,700
you know who's kind of like a James Bond

1298
00:55:06,890 --> 00:55:05,099
type he would be out in the wilds and

1299
00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:06,900
these people would be dying all over the

1300
00:55:10,910 --> 00:55:08,160
place

1301
00:55:13,370 --> 00:55:10,920
um of this uncontrollable disease so we

1302
00:55:15,290 --> 00:55:13,380
would open their skulls

1303
00:55:17,450 --> 00:55:15,300
take their brains out which were

1304
00:55:19,130 --> 00:55:17,460
infected with this thing and he would

1305
00:55:20,569 --> 00:55:19,140
ship them back to the National

1306
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:20,579
Institutes of Health in the United

1307
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:23,040
States they all ended up in this place

1308
00:55:28,849 --> 00:55:25,920
called Fort Dietrich Maryland which is a

1309
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:28,859
center of biological warfare research in

1310
00:55:34,790 --> 00:55:32,160
the United States so they started

1311
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:34,800
in the 1960s they really had no idea

1312
00:55:39,470 --> 00:55:37,200
what what this causative agent was doing

1313
00:55:43,730 --> 00:55:39,480
or what it was they thought it might be

1314
00:55:47,450 --> 00:55:43,740
a slow virus so they started injecting

1315
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,460
this these uh brain slurries into every

1316
00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:48,960
animal they could get their hands on

1317
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:51,599
everything like from chimpanzees they

1318
00:55:56,569 --> 00:55:53,280
set up this

1319
00:55:58,430 --> 00:55:56,579
um sort of zoo like like area in

1320
00:56:01,010 --> 00:55:58,440
Maryland there was actually a Wildlife

1321
00:56:03,049 --> 00:56:01,020
Reserve in Maryland and they started

1322
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:03,059
injecting deer they started injecting

1323
00:56:08,990 --> 00:56:06,000
chimpanzees mice rats anything they

1324
00:56:10,609 --> 00:56:09,000
could lay their hands on to see if these

1325
00:56:11,690 --> 00:56:10,619
animals would get sick and a lot of them

1326
00:56:14,210 --> 00:56:11,700
did

1327
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:14,220
but the problem with that is that the uh

1328
00:56:19,849 --> 00:56:18,000
the Wildlife Reserve was so poorly uh

1329
00:56:23,990 --> 00:56:19,859
secure that a lot of these animals

1330
00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:24,000
escaped and so you the origin of this

1331
00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:28,319
hypothesis is that this prion which is a

1332
00:56:34,910 --> 00:56:31,920
very slow way of dying was moving slowly

1333
00:56:39,049 --> 00:56:34,920
through the food chain it and there was

1334
00:56:42,770 --> 00:56:39,059
a a major outbreak of this prion disease

1335
00:56:45,710 --> 00:56:42,780
in northeastern Colorado in the 60s and

1336
00:56:48,109 --> 00:56:45,720
so the calculation phenomenon erupted in

1337
00:56:51,290 --> 00:56:48,119
northeastern Colorado around the same

1338
00:56:53,690 --> 00:56:51,300
time roughly temporarily and so you know

1339
00:56:56,510 --> 00:56:53,700
you've got all these sort of lights in

1340
00:56:58,730 --> 00:56:56,520
the sky that were causing these animals

1341
00:57:01,130 --> 00:56:58,740
or associated with these animals dying

1342
00:57:02,930 --> 00:57:01,140
and so the hypothesis we put out was

1343
00:57:06,049 --> 00:57:02,940
that they were actually monitoring the

1344
00:57:07,549 --> 00:57:06,059
spread of these prions as it spread

1345
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:07,559
through the cattle herds in northeastern

1346
00:57:12,770 --> 00:57:10,079
Colorado and then they found that there

1347
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:12,780
was spreading a lot quicker through the

1348
00:57:18,349 --> 00:57:15,440
United States so and it's scary as hell

1349
00:57:20,750 --> 00:57:18,359
column's book Brain Trust tracks the

1350
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:20,760
spread of this it really is through the

1351
00:57:25,309 --> 00:57:22,319
food chain you know those animals get

1352
00:57:27,770 --> 00:57:25,319
out a deer is infected it gets hit and

1353
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:27,780
and somebody grinds it up and feeds it

1354
00:57:31,730 --> 00:57:29,640
to other animals these prions are

1355
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:31,740
indestructible so now those animals have

1356
00:57:36,410 --> 00:57:34,680
it so you've had cows eating cows and

1357
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:36,420
they get it and then they they get

1358
00:57:40,730 --> 00:57:38,640
ground up and people eat them and it

1359
00:57:42,829 --> 00:57:40,740
goes into humans there's been an

1360
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:42,839
explosion we don't call at Mad Cow

1361
00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:44,160
anymore but other kinds of brain

1362
00:57:48,049 --> 00:57:46,500
diseases brain wasting diseases that

1363
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:48,059
nobody wants to talk about that nobody

1364
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:49,920
wants to admit might be related to this

1365
00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:52,559
because they don't want to alienate the

1366
00:57:57,410 --> 00:57:55,260
beef industry the pig industry they want

1367
00:57:59,630 --> 00:57:57,420
people to keep on eating this stuff yeah

1368
00:58:01,549 --> 00:57:59,640
so so I remember this one time in

1369
00:58:03,589 --> 00:58:01,559
Pioneer town you sat me down at a table

1370
00:58:05,690 --> 00:58:03,599
and I was where I was filming this

1371
00:58:08,990 --> 00:58:05,700
adventure to go there's a fresh you know

1372
00:58:10,849 --> 00:58:09,000
cattle but I you laid it out for me at

1373
00:58:12,770 --> 00:58:10,859
that table you're like no this is

1374
00:58:14,510 --> 00:58:12,780
happening it's much more no matter what

1375
00:58:16,130 --> 00:58:14,520
it is you know from lights in the sky to

1376
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:16,140
a government program to people running

1377
00:58:20,030 --> 00:58:18,240
around no one's ever been caught and you

1378
00:58:21,370 --> 00:58:20,040
sat me at that table and you laid it out

1379
00:58:23,870 --> 00:58:21,380
for me I was

1380
00:58:26,210 --> 00:58:23,880
astonished with the documentation that

1381
00:58:29,089 --> 00:58:26,220
you were able to show me from the FBI on

1382
00:58:31,069 --> 00:58:29,099
my question for you is with the book

1383
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:31,079
Brain Trust when did you put did you

1384
00:58:35,930 --> 00:58:32,880
publish this after these investigations

1385
00:58:38,569 --> 00:58:35,940
with the nid stuff yeah okay so you had

1386
00:58:41,089 --> 00:58:38,579
Direct first-hand but the book is not

1387
00:58:43,490 --> 00:58:41,099
all about that part of the mystery it's

1388
00:58:45,890 --> 00:58:43,500
about the prions and the tracking of

1389
00:58:48,049 --> 00:58:45,900
this illness yes yeah the majority of

1390
00:58:50,270 --> 00:58:48,059
the book is about the the tracking of

1391
00:58:52,370 --> 00:58:50,280
the illness the origin in Papua New

1392
00:58:54,589 --> 00:58:52,380
Guinea and the way it it tracked into

1393
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,599
the United States and then

1394
00:58:58,130 --> 00:58:56,160
um it it tracked through different

1395
00:59:00,650 --> 00:58:58,140
animals and Wildlife through the United

1396
00:59:03,710 --> 00:59:00,660
States one of the chapters does talk

1397
00:59:05,530 --> 00:59:03,720
about calculations and it does correlate

1398
00:59:09,530 --> 00:59:05,540
the uh you know that the academy

1399
00:59:12,109 --> 00:59:09,540
relations with the surveillance program

1400
00:59:14,089 --> 00:59:12,119
that was going on I've seen it said in

1401
00:59:15,770 --> 00:59:14,099
these broad statements column Keller has

1402
00:59:17,930 --> 00:59:15,780
explained the whole thing they're all

1403
00:59:19,970 --> 00:59:17,940
humans it's monitoring the something in

1404
00:59:21,890 --> 00:59:19,980
the food chain it's all explainable it's

1405
00:59:24,049 --> 00:59:21,900
not all explainable though legitimate

1406
00:59:26,450 --> 00:59:24,059
mystery yeah we still don't know who

1407
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:26,460
they are and why they're taking these

1408
00:59:32,030 --> 00:59:28,880
particular Partners absolutely I I I I

1409
00:59:35,450 --> 00:59:32,040
think we we did enough research with

1410
00:59:38,270 --> 00:59:35,460
Ned's in the 1990s especially with the

1411
00:59:40,910 --> 00:59:38,280
academy relation phenomenon to show that

1412
00:59:43,789 --> 00:59:40,920
we're two completely separate patterns

1413
00:59:46,370 --> 00:59:43,799
of cattle mutilations and one of them

1414
00:59:49,549 --> 00:59:46,380
was not explicable through a

1415
00:59:52,190 --> 00:59:49,559
surveillance program it was way too

1416
00:59:54,530 --> 00:59:52,200
weird way too bizarre

1417
00:59:57,289 --> 00:59:54,540
um for a sampling exercise or a

1418
01:00:00,349 --> 00:59:57,299
surveillance program so we we ended up

1419
01:00:02,510 --> 01:00:00,359
that there were two classes of Cattlemen

1420
01:00:05,210 --> 01:00:02,520
relations but that message really never

1421
01:00:08,270 --> 01:00:05,220
got you know got through that there were

1422
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:08,280
two classes of mutilations just like

1423
01:00:13,609 --> 01:00:10,559
um in the UFO with the UFO phenomenon

1424
01:00:16,490 --> 01:00:13,619
you know black triangles are they ours

1425
01:00:19,549 --> 01:00:16,500
are they theirs is it a special is it a

1426
01:00:21,770 --> 01:00:19,559
special access program or is it UFOs I

1427
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:21,780
mean you've got these these these

1428
01:00:26,089 --> 01:00:24,240
massive black triangles and nids did a

1429
01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:26,099
lot of research on on the black triangle

1430
01:00:30,770 --> 01:00:28,200
phenomenon we interviewed hundreds of

1431
01:00:32,510 --> 01:00:30,780
witnesses around the United States and

1432
01:00:35,150 --> 01:00:32,520
you know we came up with the same kind

1433
01:00:39,370 --> 01:00:35,160
of thing there were it seemed like there

1434
01:00:42,109 --> 01:00:39,380
were sort of impossibly large

1435
01:00:44,990 --> 01:00:42,119
triangular craft that were floating over

1436
01:00:47,809 --> 01:00:45,000
neighborhoods at Treetop level that were

1437
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:47,819
so ridiculously brightly lit if this was

1438
01:00:54,289 --> 01:00:50,400
a special Access program you know it was

1439
01:00:56,690 --> 01:00:54,299
a severely uh lacking in air safety

1440
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,700
protocols I mean if if this was an

1441
01:01:01,849 --> 01:00:58,880
experimental aircraft flying over

1442
01:01:05,450 --> 01:01:01,859
neighborhoods a treetop level you know

1443
01:01:08,329 --> 01:01:05,460
sort of Gliding Over neighborhoods that

1444
01:01:10,670 --> 01:01:08,339
that the um the Air Force would would

1445
01:01:13,250 --> 01:01:10,680
fire these people these Pilots I mean it

1446
01:01:15,530 --> 01:01:13,260
was it made no sense but at the same

1447
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:15,540
time we know that you know triangular

1448
01:01:21,230 --> 01:01:18,059
craft are being flown I mean the B1 and

1449
01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:21,240
the B21 are are sort of classic examples

1450
01:01:26,510 --> 01:01:23,760
of what sort of a triangular crop would

1451
01:01:28,250 --> 01:01:26,520
look like but you've got these two uh

1452
01:01:31,970 --> 01:01:28,260
different

1453
01:01:34,130 --> 01:01:31,980
um origins of these triangular craft and

1454
01:01:36,049 --> 01:01:34,140
you know it comes up with the same thing

1455
01:01:38,990 --> 01:01:36,059
you're looking at this black triangle

1456
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:39,000
phenomenon through two layers of

1457
01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:41,040
December action and it's very very

1458
01:01:46,190 --> 01:01:43,740
difficult uh needs is such an amazing

1459
01:01:49,069 --> 01:01:46,200
organization so Bigelow starts creating

1460
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:49,079
it in 1995 and by that time I'd been

1461
01:01:52,730 --> 01:01:50,400
friends with him for about six years

1462
01:01:54,470 --> 01:01:52,740
Robert Bigelow and he's very ambitious

1463
01:01:57,530 --> 01:01:54,480
he'd been giving out a lot of money to

1464
01:02:00,049 --> 01:01:57,540
to researchers Stan Friedman but Hopkins

1465
01:02:04,430 --> 01:02:00,059
Linda Howe all to go after their own

1466
01:02:07,130 --> 01:02:04,440
special uh a slice of the pie and uh and

1467
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:07,140
it also offered money to these UFO

1468
01:02:10,849 --> 01:02:09,119
organizations none of whom could get

1469
01:02:13,069 --> 01:02:10,859
along so he said the hell with it I'll

1470
01:02:16,490 --> 01:02:13,079
create my own so he starts putting nids

1471
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:16,500
together in 95 1996 the very first

1472
01:02:20,210 --> 01:02:18,240
science Advisory board meeting is held

1473
01:02:22,010 --> 01:02:20,220
at Park House in Las Vegas and they

1474
01:02:24,530 --> 01:02:22,020
asked me to come and speak

1475
01:02:26,030 --> 01:02:24,540
and I was overwhelmed I mean I I thought

1476
01:02:27,770 --> 01:02:26,040
it was really cool but overwhelmed

1477
01:02:29,630 --> 01:02:27,780
looking around that room there's Dr

1478
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:29,640
Edgar Mitchell the sixth man to walk on

1479
01:02:34,730 --> 01:02:32,400
the moon there's Jacque ballet uh maybe

1480
01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:34,740
the greatest UFO writer thinker ever

1481
01:02:38,809 --> 01:02:36,960
there there's Hal put off there's kit

1482
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:38,819
green only names I've sort of heard

1483
01:02:43,849 --> 01:02:41,520
about and Whispers uh in the UFO world

1484
01:02:46,609 --> 01:02:43,859
and then a lot of other academics were

1485
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:46,619
equally impressive Harrison Schmidt who

1486
01:02:52,849 --> 01:02:49,200
was a U.S senator at the time I do a

1487
01:02:54,770 --> 01:02:52,859
presentation on the Russia UFO files and

1488
01:02:56,150 --> 01:02:54,780
uh it didn't really go anywhere I mean a

1489
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:56,160
couple of them were interested Harrison

1490
01:02:59,930 --> 01:02:57,839
Schmidt was kind of a jerk about the

1491
01:03:01,490 --> 01:02:59,940
whole thing he was he wasn't buying it

1492
01:03:04,069 --> 01:03:01,500
it's all anecdotal and it was the

1493
01:03:06,349 --> 01:03:04,079
Russian Ministry defense files but I was

1494
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:06,359
in so and and after that meeting that's

1495
01:03:10,430 --> 01:03:08,160
what I told Harry Reid about it about

1496
01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:10,440
this organization called nids a couple

1497
01:03:14,930 --> 01:03:12,960
of months later is when Robert Bigelow

1498
01:03:16,910 --> 01:03:14,940
hears about this Ranch in Utah and buys

1499
01:03:18,829 --> 01:03:16,920
it and around the same time he hires

1500
01:03:21,710 --> 01:03:18,839
this the young Irish guy named Colin

1501
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:21,720
Kelleher who I was allowed to interact

1502
01:03:25,069 --> 01:03:23,280
with I get over there I don't know what

1503
01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:25,079
he thought why do I have to talk to this

1504
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:27,180
reporter but he's telling me all this

1505
01:03:31,609 --> 01:03:28,799
cattle mutilation stuff

1506
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:31,619
they start doing the the uh black

1507
01:03:35,650 --> 01:03:33,359
triangle investigation they're working

1508
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:35,660
on all kinds of cool things including

1509
01:03:40,130 --> 01:03:37,920
Skinwalker Ranch and

1510
01:03:42,109 --> 01:03:40,140
it's wonderful to be on the inside and

1511
01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:42,119
to be able to hear this and it was also

1512
01:03:46,130 --> 01:03:44,160
torturous to be there as a reporter and

1513
01:03:49,250 --> 01:03:46,140
not being able to tell anybody any of it

1514
01:03:50,750 --> 01:03:49,260
we couldn't just utter a word we end up

1515
01:03:53,089 --> 01:03:50,760
doing some stories I interviewed young

1516
01:03:54,650 --> 01:03:53,099
column I think we talked about cattle

1517
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:54,660
regulation stuff in one of them and then

1518
01:03:59,930 --> 01:03:56,400
later did a story on black triangles

1519
01:04:01,849 --> 01:03:59,940
yeah and so we did I was allowed to to

1520
01:04:03,650 --> 01:04:01,859
pierce the veil a little bit but

1521
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:03,660
couldn't say anything about the ranch at

1522
01:04:07,670 --> 01:04:06,000
all I just want to again I keep feel

1523
01:04:10,670 --> 01:04:07,680
like I have to back up so you have

1524
01:04:14,870 --> 01:04:10,680
direct knowledge that our government was

1525
01:04:17,450 --> 01:04:14,880
using the UFO phenomenon as cover in a

1526
01:04:20,750 --> 01:04:17,460
way like what what like faking UFO

1527
01:04:23,569 --> 01:04:20,760
encounters yeah I mean the the

1528
01:04:26,030 --> 01:04:23,579
Barry Colonel Barry Hennessy was

1529
01:04:29,690 --> 01:04:26,040
legendary in the Air Force office of

1530
01:04:32,530 --> 01:04:29,700
special investigations he ran a subset

1531
01:04:36,410 --> 01:04:32,540
of that called an organization called PJ

1532
01:04:39,710 --> 01:04:36,420
this was the sort of the really heavy

1533
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:39,720
duty counterintelligence uh uh

1534
01:04:44,829 --> 01:04:42,960
organization and so uh we interviewed

1535
01:04:48,049 --> 01:04:44,839
him in

1536
01:04:50,690 --> 01:04:48,059
2009. like counterintelligence about the

1537
01:04:54,049 --> 01:04:50,700
UFO topic are a lot of things of of of

1538
01:04:57,710 --> 01:04:54,059
the Air Force all of the earth okay yeah

1539
01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:57,720
so so a subset of that now came up

1540
01:05:01,849 --> 01:04:59,520
during our interview we were the only

1541
01:05:05,390 --> 01:05:01,859
reason we interviewed uh Colonel

1542
01:05:07,549 --> 01:05:05,400
Hennessy was because he was a Legend

1543
01:05:11,450 --> 01:05:07,559
um in this field and we had heard rumors

1544
01:05:14,930 --> 01:05:11,460
that the Air Force had utilized the UFO

1545
01:05:16,609 --> 01:05:14,940
phenomenon to cover you know various uh

1546
01:05:20,030 --> 01:05:16,619
special access programs you know a good

1547
01:05:23,569 --> 01:05:20,040
example was an early version of the

1548
01:05:27,770 --> 01:05:23,579
F-117 Queen had crashed near Dulce in

1549
01:05:31,490 --> 01:05:27,780
New Mexico in the 80s and so there was a

1550
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:31,500
UFO lore grow grew up around that part

1551
01:05:38,210 --> 01:05:34,559
of New Mexico and it was perpetrated by

1552
01:05:41,030 --> 01:05:38,220
agents of afosi so it was very

1553
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:41,040
convenient for the Air Force to have a

1554
01:05:47,450 --> 01:05:44,400
lot of people talk about you know alien

1555
01:05:50,450 --> 01:05:47,460
UFOs crashing in in Northern New Mexico

1556
01:05:53,089 --> 01:05:50,460
when actually an early prototype of the

1557
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:53,099
F-117 had crashed in Northern New Mexico

1558
01:05:58,730 --> 01:05:55,920
so that was an example of a sort of a

1559
01:06:00,890 --> 01:05:58,740
marriage of convenience and other other

1560
01:06:03,289 --> 01:06:00,900
examples that Colonel Hennessy gave us

1561
01:06:05,690 --> 01:06:03,299
was there was a very famous set of

1562
01:06:10,130 --> 01:06:05,700
sightings in in what was called the

1563
01:06:13,069 --> 01:06:10,140
Northern Tier missile bases that spanned

1564
01:06:15,589 --> 01:06:13,079
between Canada and the United States

1565
01:06:18,530 --> 01:06:15,599
it was Loring Air Force Base in Maine

1566
01:06:21,230 --> 01:06:18,540
and Wordsmith Air Force Base uh miles

1567
01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:21,240
from Air Force Base uh Minot Air Force

1568
01:06:28,150 --> 01:06:24,000
Base right across the the Northern Tier

1569
01:06:32,510 --> 01:06:28,160
a lot of those bases during the 1970s

1570
01:06:36,170 --> 01:06:32,520
had incursions from very weird sort of

1571
01:06:38,990 --> 01:06:36,180
UFO type activity but Colonel Hennessy

1572
01:06:40,910 --> 01:06:39,000
told us some of those were ours you know

1573
01:06:44,510 --> 01:06:40,920
some of those were direct penetration

1574
01:06:47,569 --> 01:06:44,520
attempts to see to assess and evaluate

1575
01:06:49,670 --> 01:06:47,579
the security level of these Air Force

1576
01:06:52,730 --> 01:06:49,680
bases but he flat out said some of them

1577
01:06:55,730 --> 01:06:52,740
were not ours some of them were theirs

1578
01:06:58,130 --> 01:06:55,740
so so so it was this discrepancy between

1579
01:07:00,410 --> 01:06:58,140
some are ours and some are theirs but

1580
01:07:03,650 --> 01:07:00,420
the Northern Tier sightings are usually

1581
01:07:05,630 --> 01:07:03,660
associated with only UFO activity but we

1582
01:07:08,270 --> 01:07:05,640
know from what Colonel Hennessy told us

1583
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:08,280
that it was both right and so you know

1584
01:07:13,549 --> 01:07:11,760
I've talked to certain uh Pilots you

1585
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,559
know have you ever seen a UFO in the

1586
01:07:17,630 --> 01:07:15,599
work military Pilots right have flown

1587
01:07:20,089 --> 01:07:17,640
special craft you know and they're like

1588
01:07:22,309 --> 01:07:20,099
no but I've been one you know it's like

1589
01:07:24,410 --> 01:07:22,319
the misidentification but I I think

1590
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:24,420
what's hard for people to unravel

1591
01:07:28,730 --> 01:07:26,160
because it was hard for me to really get

1592
01:07:31,250 --> 01:07:28,740
this which is that you've got this real

1593
01:07:33,710 --> 01:07:31,260
phenomenon of unknown which is

1594
01:07:35,569 --> 01:07:33,720
definitively we'll just say unknown at

1595
01:07:37,730 --> 01:07:35,579
this time or not ours or not a nation

1596
01:07:39,170 --> 01:07:37,740
that we know of on planet Earth that

1597
01:07:41,630 --> 01:07:39,180
we're aware of let's call them them

1598
01:07:43,789 --> 01:07:41,640
there's some there's some but that

1599
01:07:46,069 --> 01:07:43,799
there's also this misidentification

1600
01:07:48,529 --> 01:07:46,079
issue when it comes to our military

1601
01:07:50,510 --> 01:07:48,539
technology but there is a process for

1602
01:07:52,670 --> 01:07:50,520
that and eventually the people

1603
01:07:55,789 --> 01:07:52,680
investigating it they're able to see

1604
01:07:57,410 --> 01:07:55,799
that was ours you know don't waste

1605
01:07:58,970 --> 01:07:57,420
resources on that and there's a whole

1606
01:08:01,730 --> 01:07:58,980
protocol on process

1607
01:08:03,890 --> 01:08:01,740
and a lot of people that want to dismiss

1608
01:08:06,170 --> 01:08:03,900
this topic they're they're always saying

1609
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:06,180
well this is a foreign Tech or this is a

1610
01:08:11,150 --> 01:08:08,220
black U.S project I've gone through it

1611
01:08:13,430 --> 01:08:11,160
Ad nauseam like how that doesn't apply

1612
01:08:15,589 --> 01:08:13,440
how at the highest levels when people

1613
01:08:17,870 --> 01:08:15,599
knock on doors they get to they're

1614
01:08:20,749 --> 01:08:17,880
wasting resources if we're these are not

1615
01:08:22,970 --> 01:08:20,759
ours and that's so hard for people who

1616
01:08:25,070 --> 01:08:22,980
don't want to look at the facts to

1617
01:08:27,370 --> 01:08:25,080
understand but you're telling us these

1618
01:08:29,749 --> 01:08:27,380
different layers they all exist

1619
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:29,759
simultaneously which is even harder to

1620
01:08:35,990 --> 01:08:33,120
grasp as a big topic now I do want to

1621
01:08:37,849 --> 01:08:36,000
kind of get into this one idea that one

1622
01:08:39,950 --> 01:08:37,859
of the reasons why I'm stoked you're

1623
01:08:42,530 --> 01:08:39,960
talking with us like openly here like

1624
01:08:45,050 --> 01:08:42,540
this man I've heard you guys talk I know

1625
01:08:48,050 --> 01:08:45,060
what's going on to a high degree is that

1626
01:08:53,630 --> 01:08:48,060
you ran like you ran

1627
01:08:55,729 --> 01:08:53,640
the largest acknowledged UFO program in

1628
01:08:58,370 --> 01:08:55,739
the history of our military that's

1629
01:09:01,729 --> 01:08:58,380
acknowledged and and that was called

1630
01:09:04,490 --> 01:09:01,739
ASAP hired through the DIA contract but

1631
01:09:06,650 --> 01:09:04,500
you were the principal who ran the

1632
01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:06,660
day-to-day the investigations is that

1633
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:16,710
in the near future